Transcript
Transcript: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series: Malcolm Brown
[00:00:11 Text appears onscreen that reads "Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series with Malcolm Brown".]
[00:00:25 Text appears onscreen that reads "Malcolm Brown retired from the Public Service in 2019 as the Deputy Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness after 31 years of public service."]
[00:00:35 Text appears onscreen that reads "Where were you born?"]
Malcolm Brown (Former Deputy Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): I was born in Kingston, Ontario, not Kingston, Nova Scotia.
[00:00:47 Text appears onscreen that reads "What did you want to be when you grow up?"]
Not a doctor, because my father was a well-known and successful doctor, and I thought I'd be a lawyer.
[00:01:00 Text appears onscreen that reads "Where did you go to university?"]
Like salmon swimming back upstream, Kingston, Queens. And then for a more, even in those days, more diverse an experience, York University, Toronto.
[00:01:19 Text appears onscreen that reads "What did you study?"]
Surprise, political studies.
[00:01:27 Text appears onscreen that reads "What was your first job?"]
That's a very interesting story. I started, first real job out of university was working on the Hill for a couple of opposition MPs, which by the way, is a lot more fun than working for a government MP, I would say, or even for a minister, opposition is a ton of fun, and then spent a bit of time in the private sector and got drawn into the provincial public service in Ontario. And then, for family reasons, moved back to Ottawa and joined the federal government for 12 months and I stayed for 30 years.
[00:02:13 Text appears onscreen that reads "What was your first job in the Government of Canada?"]
PM, maybe four, maybe five, in the Office of Federal-Provincial Relations.
[00:02:30 Text appears onscreen that reads "How did you become an executive?"]
Left PCO in the great Campbell reorganization of 1993, went to Health Canada and was an ES-6, and kind of went back and forth, referendum, a couple of other things.
[00:02:54 Text appears onscreen that reads "Malcolm was Director of Federal-Provincial Relations Division at Health Canada from 1995 to 1997."]
And was then recruited back by Andre Juneau and Guy Bujold, to be Director of Federal-Provincial Relations.
[00:03:07 Text appears onscreen that reads "What was your first assistant deputy minister job?"]
[00:03:14 Text appears onscreen that reads "He was Director General of Sectoral Analysis in Intergovernmental Affairs at the Priy Council Office from 1999 to 2002."]
First ADM job was the Reference Group of Ministers on Aboriginal Policy in PCO.
[00:03:21 Text appears onscreen that reads "He then became Assistant Deputy Minister of the Reference Group of Ministers on Aboriginal Policy at the Privy Council Office in 2002."]
Had been at PCO as a DG in Intergovernmental Affairs. Kathy O'Hara was supporting Minister Dion's reference group, established by Prime Minister Chrétien.
[00:03:36 Text appears onscreen that reads "How does one become a deputy minister?"]
Well, it's a black box, but I think it's less of a black box than we like to make it out to be. There isn't a formal application process, but I do think, and this is a view I have more broadly, we have more control over our destinies than we sometimes think we do. And so, you can, in different ways, put your hand up. And the usual procedure, you get a phone call from senior personnel. You get summoned in to ask, very clear, no promises, no guarantees, they're really just seeing if you're willing to put your hat in the ring. And there are a few conversations, questions and back and forth, and then you are thanked for your time and sent cheerfully on your way. And then you wait. And then there's a phone call from the Clerk, usually.
[00:04:37 Text appears onscreen that reads "What jobs did you hold in the Government of Canada?"]
[00:04:47 Text appears onscreen that reads "Malcolm was Associate Deputy Minister of Natural Resources from 2009 to 2011."]
First was Associate at Natural Resources Canada with Cassie Doyle as Deputy for the most part, and then briefly, Serge Dupont. A ton of fun.
[00:04:58 Text appears onscreen that reads "He then became Executive Vice-President of the Canada Border Services Agency from 2011 to 2014."]
Then CBSA, as Executive Vice President with Luc Portelance. Two more different people you probably could not find, which may be there was a reason for that, they put us together. But we spent three and a half years together and were a great team. He was a great leader.
[00:05:18 Text appears onscreen that reads "And then, from 2014 to 2015, he became Deputy Minister of International Development."]
Then, Deputy Minister of International Development at Global Affairs. Key role there. One of the big points was it was part of the public, or the previous government's effort to consolidate the department, so with rolling ex-CIDA into the department.
[00:05:32 Text appears onscreen that reads "From 2015 to 2016, he was Special Advisor to the Clerk of the Privy Council on the Syrian Refugee Initiative."]
Then briefly, the Senior Advisor for the Syrian Refugee Initiative.
[00:05:38 Text appears onscreen that reads "And finally, became Deputy Minister of Public Safety from 2016 to 2019"]
And then my last role was as, for over three years, as the Deputy Minister of Public Safety.
[00:05:46 Text appears onscreen that reads "What are your thoughts on federal provincial relations?"]
It's complicated. It, I think, requires an awful lot of ongoing care and feeding. In some ways, I think federalism is the glue that holds the country together. But we have been blessed or cursed by a relatively stable decade or two, actually, so we've tended not to pay as much attention, I think take it for granted. I struggle with do we want to live in the interesting times of the 80's, and 90's, and 2000's, mid-2000's, up to the mid-2000's, or are we better off in the relatively, seemingly relatively tranquil period? But I think we are headed towards choppier waters from a federalism perspective.
[00:06:52 Text appears onscreen that reads "What challenges did you face during the referendum period?"]
So, I was there until a few months before the actual referendum, and to be honest, and this is relatively, I was quite junior, I was a ES-6, I wasn't an executive rank. I was frustrated, and so that's when I moved to Health Canada. But in that frustration, I think is an answer to the question around what it was like. There is no question there was a real sense that, for the first half, and in the lead up to the referendum, many people thought that this was a slam dunk for the federalists. And then the emergence of Lucien Bouchard, leadership of the campaign for the yes side was transitioned informally, and then more formally, from Parizeau to Bouchard. And he was a myth in the making. It was impossible to respond to. We spent a lot of time, in the lead up to the referendum, struggling with how to come up with a more emotional, more emotionally attractive rationale for voting no. And I think, in the end, that was a strategic vulnerability. Now, there's also happenstance, and blind luck, and the very compelling story of Bouchard's near death, his loss of a leg and then his pilgrimage through the province in the latter days of the referendum. But I think we made our lives more difficult by not having that compelling emotional connection, and I think that's still a challenge for federalists and federalism in the country.
[00:08:57 Text appears onscreen that reads "How did you end up at Intergovernmental Affairs?"]
To be frank, I was, I would say on waivers. We all go through periods in our career when leadership changes, things change. And so, I left Health Canada, and Andre Juneau and George Anderson recruited me, found me a landing spot, to be frank. And it was a fascinating time because it was in the midst, the, really, very beginning of thinking through the clarity agenda with Stéphane Dion, and it was a fascinating period, very controversial, controversial internally within the government but also controversial internally within PCO and Intergovernmental Affairs. There were a lot of very strongly held divergent views, and it was fascinating watching that initiative work its way through the system.
[00:10:02 Text appears onscreen that reads "When did you start working in security?"]
It really started, I would say, ironically, and not in a place where people think security is a significant issue, but in reality it is quite important, at Immigration, where we started to deal with things like visa policy, and security certificates, and issues of essentially who gets in and who doesn't get into the country. Fast forward many years, several years, the decision to match up a security person at CBSA, Luc Portelance, who had spent all of his career at CSIS, with someone who had at least some affinity for that but had a more varied social policy intergovernmental and a little bit of security background, and that's where that sort of came together. But even today, I think of myself more as a generalist than as a security person, and I think the security community in the federal government is strengthened when it draws people in from other sectors as opposed to being viewed as kind of a silo and you work your way up. And I think, like most sectors, you benefit from a mix of real expertise but also broader experience basis.
[00:11:30 Text appears onscreen that reads "In 2015, a new government comes in and promises to bring in 25,000 Syrian refugees by Christmas. Can you elaborate on this?"]
It goes back to the decision of the Clerk at the time, Janice Charette, that she wanted to present to the new government, which had, through this campaign, had bid up, it started at 5,000, then ten, 15, it was like an auction, bid up the number of refugees by Christmas. She wanted to present to the government in the transition period between the election and the swearing in of government, a whole of government perspective on the refugee issue. And she, as a former Deputy of Immigration, knew that it was, yes, Immigration and Refugees, in those days, CIC, yes, it was the Border Agency, but it was also International Development because refugees come from somewhere, and almost always, they transition through third countries and there's a lot of international aid. And so, she asked me to, does a Clerk ever ask? Suggested that I be part of the transition briefings for the new government. Not surprisingly, it mostly focused on my colleagues in Immigration and at CBSA, Lisa McPherson and Anita (inaudible).
So, I was able to sort of observe, and it's no secret that the transition advice, and the government generally, the public service as a whole, was a little reticent about responding to, about how to respond to this initiative. And so, I said to the Clerk, "This is the government's highest priority. You need to appoint someone to take the, a central role to lift some pressure off line deputies who are developing relationships with new ministers that they're going to have to maintain. And there's going to be some good news and some bad news in the middle of these conversations. And I certainly wouldn't want to be trying to run the initiative while also onboarding a new minister and all the things that are associated with that." So, the Clerk took that advice and came back a little while later and said, within a few days, and said, "Yes, I think that's sensible advice." I said, "That's great! Who have you selected?" And she said, "You are doing it." I said, "No, I really like my role at International Development. It's a great job. I've just been there 15 months, really getting my head around the job." And she said, "Well, that's very interesting, but the Prime Minister's already approved the order in council and it's going to be issued in 48 hours. So, buckle up." So, that's the story of how I got drawn into the Syrian Refugee initiative.
[00:14:37 Text appears onscreen that reads "How did we manage to get 25,000 refugees here in time?"]
We got 25,000 people, refugees, from Syria into Canada. The government changed its deadline from Christmas to the end of February. Happily, it was a leap year, so we had an extra day, and I remember saying that to ministers and they laughed. I said, "No, no, no, this may come down to the final plane load on the final day." We got this done not because of anything I did, to be frank, in the Syrian as a Special Advisor, but by heroic work by people in CBSA, CIC, Global Affairs, Defense, heroic work by community groups across the country. It was really an extraordinary collective effort.
[00:15:31 Text appears onscreen that reads "It seems that the public service works more efficiently and effectively in times of crisis. Is this true?"]
It is, but I don't think it has to be. And one of the phrases I really dislike is, "Never waste a good crisis." There are people who are going through the crisis and we shouldn't get to that point to be responsive, and innovative and break some China. Leaders can, in a constructive way and in a positive way, impart urgency, and a willingness to take risks and do things differently outside of the limelight, so lots of people don't know about it but things get done. It's certainly easy in a crisis to motivate people, so it requires a different set of muscles and competencies by leaders to drive that kind of change when the platform's not burning.
[00:16:34 Text appears onscreen that reads "What does leadership mean to you?"]
I saw, as I worked my way through the public service, good leaders and not good leaders, and I frankly saw it until the last day I left. For me, it was trying to emulate those things that good leaders I thought would do, doing the right thing, not taking the easy decision but making the right decision, sharing responsibility not abdicating it. It's actually, it's a hard question but it's really simple when you think about it. And at the end of the day, it's simple things like can you look at yourself in the mirror and say, "Did I, this week or today, make things a little bit better?" Or sometimes even, "Did I not make them worse?" And some days, we're going to say we made them worse. But being honest with yourself, and with your colleagues and your subordinates is authentic. Being a good leader, I think, is also someone who's authentic. My approach to leadership was to mimic the people I thought were good leaders.
[00:17:52 Text appears onscreen that reads "Can you tell us the difference between the federal public service you joined and the one you left?"]
In many ways, they're unrecognizable, 1990 and 2019. Unrecognizable. In other ways, they're exactly the same institution. There were always these border clashes between the political level and the bureaucratic level. They existed in the 90's when I joined for a variety of reasons. I heard stories in the 70's, and the 60's, the 70's and the 80's, about the same issues. So, I think part of it, we need to understand, is it's not an entirely brave new world, but it's also not exactly the way it was 20 or 30 years.
[00:18:47 Text appears onscreen that reads "What advice would you give to a junior public servant just starting out their career?"]
It's a long game, and by game I don't mean manipulative. I mean it in the sense of it's a long process. Public service in particular is a place where you can at times in your career, very early, have very significant impact. I was in the public service, federal public service, less than two years, year and a half, and I was right place, right time, writing notes for First Ministers' meetings on the economy for the Prime Minister, and that Prime Minister read them because he saw the underlined things. That's kind of cool. Other jobs afterwards, I was lucky if I got to do correspondence because I hadn't proven myself, I'd say to myself. It's easy to get frustrated, and to want to have impact all the time and immediately. And I think one of the challenges, but one of the unique things, is that as you work your way through the organization, and that doesn't necessarily mean up, but as you deepen your knowledge and expertise, you may decide that you want to stay focused in a particular subject area, the breadth and scope of the influence you can have in the public service rivals anything you can have in any other occupation. And so, I think it's about understanding, and it's not for everybody, but understanding that if you really want to have profound impact, a positive impact on the lives of Canadians, there's no better place to work.
[00:20:40 Text appears onscreen that reads "Can you give some advice to a newly appointed deputy minister?"]
I will preface this by saying I think we don't use the time as associate deputy minister as well as we should. Maybe it was because Cassie Doyle was my first deputy, but she essentially said to me, I think in almost these words, but certainly the spirit, "This will be the last time you get to fill your intellectual competency bag, basket. So, absorb, learn, observe." When you make the transition to being a deputy and running things, there's only one deputy, and doesn't matter how many associates there are, what the structure is, it's you. And so, it can be a very isolating experience. And so, one lesson is to understand that point. It is different. These roles are profoundly different than any other role you will have at the public service. Secondly, despite the fact about isolation that I just talked about, you're not alone. There are, at any given time, 30 or 40 other colleagues who are going through exactly the same thing, and some are further down the road than you are, and some of them, not all of them, will be quite happy to share their experiences, be sources of advice. Certainly, my experience. I reached out to a handful to seek advice when I had particularly challenging circumstances.
Another piece of advice is that there can develop a bit of a cult of a personality around deputies. You sometimes don't even know that it's happening. Sometimes you do, and it strokes your ego. I think there's risk there. I think deputies need to find the right balance between occupying space, being leaders, but also recognizing that everyone is watching absolutely everything you do and will take a side glance to a comment as, "That's an instruction." And this was a challenge for me because I had a tendency, and still do, to make smart aleck comments and would, then would have to make it very clear I was joking, like, that wasn't an instruction. And I think understanding the performative nature of the role is really important. And I think the final piece of advice I would have for someone is you have to be authentic, and genuine, and support your teams, and not the team you import, the team you inherit. You have to learn about them and make the best of them. So, I could go on at great length, but those are four or five sort of key elements I think are really important for a new deputy.
[00:24:09 Text appears onscreen that reads "Is there anything else you'd like to tell us?"]
We've not talked a lot about having fun. These can be serious jobs. I spent time in the security space in my last stint, three years, and it can be a dark and gloomy place. But you've got to find ways to have fun, make things interesting. It can't just be doing heavy lifting all the time. You've got to find ways to bring groups, teams along, and if nobody's laughing, it's not going to last very long.
[00:24:59 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]
[00:25:06 The Government of Canada logo appears onscreen.]
