Transcript
Transcript: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series: Yaprak Baltacioğlu
[00:00:00 Video opens with a montage of views of the CSPS building, the Deputy Minister's Office, and the crew setting up their equipment for the interview. Yaprak Baltacioğlu takes a seat in an historic room. Text on screen: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections, with Yaprak Baltacioğlu. Inspiring music plays while the questions are being asked.]
[00:00:21 Overlaid text on screen: Yaprak Baltacioğlu, C.M. is a public servant, lawyer, and professor. She served in senior roles, including as Secretary of the Treasury Board from 2012 to 2018, and became Chancellor of Carleton University after retiring.]
[00:00:33 Overlaid text on screen: She also teaches graduate courses at the University of Toronto's School of Public Policy and Governance, contributing to both public administration and higher education in Canada.]
[00:00:46 Yaprak Baltacioğlu appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Where were you born?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I was born in Ankara, Turkey. Türkiye.
[00:00:52 Overlaid text on screen: What do you recall about your childhood in Ankara?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I remember a lot of things. I actually, now that I think about it, I'd lived in Turkey for 21 years and I've lived in Canada for 44 years. And somehow those 21 years have such an impact on me when I compare it to the 44 years in terms of how I have two personalities, two sets of memories, two sets of languages, two different kinds of dreams.
[00:01:27 Overlaid photo of Yaprak Baltacioğlu as a child. Overlaid text on screen: Grade 1, living in Turkey.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: So, I remember a lot of things: growing up in a Turkish society; growing up watching my dad fight for civil rights; growing up while he was not a great dad or a husband, but he was a great leader. Growing up with my mom struggling with mental health issues. But also growing up with wonderful food and my grandmother's cooking.
[00:01:54 Overlaid text on screen: Where did you go to university?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I went to law school in Istanbul University.
[00:02:01 Overlaid exterior photo of Istanbul University. Overlaid text on screen: She obtained a law degree at Istanbul University before immigrating to Canada in 1980 at the age of 21.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: And it was expected of me to go to law school because my dad was a big legal mind and so I always wanted to be a criminal lawyer. And that's what I thought I was going to be. But then look where I am.
[00:02:21 Overlaid text on screen: What do you remember about your university experience in Turkey?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: It was very unsafe times. Actually, quite a lot of the times the classes would get interrupted. Either the right-wing or the left-wing activists would come in and say, okay, we're going to go for a march. And you had no option. You just had to go because they had guns.
And [at] one of my exams, we heard this big bang outside, at the entrance of the university, but the whole exam room shook and there was a bomb that went off and I think 14 people died. And when I came out of the exam and there were all these dead bodies, it was a pretty traumatic time.
[00:03:04 Overlaid text on screen: Could you tell us why you ended up moving to Canada?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I came to Canada because my then husband wanted to come do his PhD in North America because that was the time where the promise of personal computers was coming out. And he wanted to be near the technology because he said, the world's going to change with this. This is not just a normal thing. And so, my job was to find a country to go to. And I did research on Canada, and we ended up in Canada.
[00:03:43 Overlaid text on screen: What influenced your decision to choose Canada over other countries?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Well, my research was interesting because in those days there was no Internet, there was no emails. So, I wrote to every embassy, a bunch of European countries, and USA, and Canada, and I said, can you send me some information about your country? So, they sent you booklets. When I looked at the Canadian booklet, it was just this very colourful booklet of people with all sorts of colours, different racial profiles. They all looked different.
And in the centrefold was a basket of peaches. And I thought, wow, a country that is so confident that they can put a basket of fruits as a centrefold. It must be some special country. So, I showed up in Canada because of peaches. But it was interesting because everybody else had either a landmark, you know, the Eiffel Tower or American flag or something. And here we had peaches. And I thought that was just for me.
[00:04:57 Overlaid text on screen: Did you practice law in Canada after studying it in Turkey?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: No, two reasons. One is I studied under civil law. So, unless you work in Quebec, you can't really do that here. And your degrees don't get recognized.
[00:05:21 Overlaid text on screen: Yaprak Baltacioğlu graduated with a master's degree from Carleton's School of Public Administration in 1989.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: It's impossible to get recognized. So, I had to go back to school to get a Canadian degree.
[00:05:30 Overlaid text on screen: What was your first job in the Government of Canada?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: My very first job, I started as a casual employee,
[00:05:39 Overlaid text on screen: From 1989 to 1990, she served as a Program Evaluation Officer at the Public Service Commission.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: as a junior auditor at Public Service Commission.
[00:05:49 Overlaid text on screen: What do you remember most about that job?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I was just so happy to have, first of all, to have a job, right? Because if you're an immigrant, if you don't get a job, then your life is not particularly secure for the rest of your time because you don't know anybody. You really have no Canadian job experience. It's really hard to get hired.
And so, I was just so happy to have a job and to work in the public service. I thought, I get to serve Canada. That just felt so good.
And of course, I was not trained to be an auditor, but I was the junior auditor. They gave me all of the jobs nobody else wanted to do. But I was very happy.
[00:06:40 Overlaid text on screen: Where did you transition after your time at the Public Service Commission?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Well, my Public Service Commission career was very short, maybe a year or so. And our boss at that time got a job in Agriculture Canada. So, he basically took a few of us with him to Agriculture.
[00:07:12 Overlaid text on screen: She then transitioned to the role of Senior Analyst in the Bureau for Environmental Sustainability at Environment Canada.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: My only connection to agriculture was that my grandfather was an agronomist. But beyond that, I grew up in a very big city and my knowledge of agriculture was a sum total of nothing.
[00:07:26 Overlaid text on screen: In 1992, she was appointed Chief of Federal-Provincial Relations.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: But it was really amazing policy work. It was amazing. And they needed people who could write and summarize and analyze and frame things and write things like decks where, they were new things then. And I loved it.
And the people of Agriculture Canada, at that time they were Agriculture Canada, they were just generous. Clearly, I didn't fit very well because I wasn't from Guelph, I wasn't an agricultural economist. But it really brought the multidisciplinary thing into policy thinking. So, I loved it. And it was just a wonderful time.
[00:08:10 Overlaid text on screen: What was your first job as an executive in the Government of Canada?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: My first EX job,
[00:08:22 Overlaid text on screen: In 1993, she became Director of Policy Coordination at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I was the Director of Policy Coordination in the Policy Branch.
[00:08:30 Overlaid text on screen: From 1995 to 1997, she served as Chief of Staff to the Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I think I might have just gotten to become an EX because I was a woman, because there weren't any women executives in Policy Branch at that time.
[00:08:39 Overlaid text on screen: She left the department in 1997 to join Environment Canada as Director General of Strategic Policy.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: So, I think they looked around and there weren't many of us, and I was there. So, I got my very first EX job.
[00:08:49 Overlaid text on screen: What was your first job as assistant deputy minister?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Well, my very first ADM job was again in Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.
[00:09:06 Overlaid text on screen: In 1999, she served as Director General of International Relations at Environment Canada.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I left as an EX2 from being the Deputy Minister's Chief of Staff to Environment.
[00:09:13 Overlaid text on screen: The following year, she returned to Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada as Assistant Deputy Minister (Policy).]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: And then one day I got a call from the newly minted deputy, [who] I'd never met before. I had an interview with him, and a few days later they gave me a call and said, we would like you to come be the policy ADM. So, that was my very first ADM job.
[00:09:34 Overlaid text on screen: How did you become a Deputy Minister?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: So, I think within 14 years or 15 years into my public service career, I became a deputy minister.
[00:09:48 Overlaid text on screen: After holding several other significant roles in public service, she served as Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Operations) at the Privy Council Office from 2004 to 2007.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Not a department, but at PCO. And I was a Deputy Secretary, Operations. And it was when Mr. Martin, Prime Minister Martin, was there and I was in that job from Prime Minister Martin 1, Martin 2, and then to Mr. Harper. So, it was really fascinating. I loved working in PCO. It was a lot of fun. And I have long lasting relationships from my days there.
[00:10:21 Overlaid text on screen: What was it like for you when you started working closely with prime ministers and ministers?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I can tell you, even to this day, every time I walk towards the Parliament and right where you see the Peace Tower and the building is just in front of you, I always get – I feel I get filled with just amazing amount of emotion. It means so much to me. And I remember the first time I actually went to a cabinet meeting,
[00:10:54 Overlaid text on screen: She was Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet for Social Development Policy at the Privy Council Office from 2002 to 2004.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: as an assistant secretary at that time, I was sitting next to Alan Rock, who was my chair at that time. And I think I had my mouth open looking around. Oh, my God, this is just so amazing. And he leans over, and he says, I think you're supposed to take the notes or something because I was just awestruck. And I have never taken any of my moments in any Cabinet room, and even at committee rooms, which was not always fun. I always appreciated it.
[00:11:28 Overlaid text on screen: What does leadership mean to you?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: [What] leadership means to me is to be able to make a change for the better in this world and to be able to mobilize people, organizations, to get there with you. That's what it means to me.
But leadership also means taking charge. Leadership also means not taking charge. Leadership can be caring.
Leadership could be being tough in the face of difficult situations. It can be many, many things. But the bottom line is you try to bring positive change and, in the end, help Canada to do whatever it needs to do. And so that's what it means to me.
[00:12:25 Overlaid text on screen: What have you learned from the leaders you've encountered throughout your career?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: The things I learned from the leaders I admired was that dogged belief that forward progress should not be compromised. The determination that we're going to make a change and we're going to push this for the better. And that determination and not wavering when you face obstacles, people, you name it. But really having that laser focus of going forward. I think what I really learned in a broad, broad way is that sometimes positions give you leadership positions, but unless you get into those shoes and play the role of the leader, be a leader, that is the worst part.
So, some people would have the shoes but not use them, and not be there, or just wear them. And it was about them rather than pushing anything forward or making any positive change or building an organization or being kind to their people or none of that. It was just, you know, they were there. But time passed.
[00:13:55 Overlaid text on screen: Can you explain what you mean by "institutional space"?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: When I did my master's, my professor, Sharon Sutherland, who actually changed my life because she taught me so many things. She taught me the basics and the fundamentals of public service and the government: ministerial responsibility; accountability; fearless advice to ministers; the role of a non-partisan public service, etc. So, I lived my life, public service life, being grounded in those principles and understanding them deeply. So, in that context, suddenly you're the deputy minister or something, or ADM of wherever department you are, you need to do your job. You need to do your job fully.
Institutionally, I always knew what public service space was. We had to administer, which is a big deal, right? We have to deliver programs, etc. But we also have an advice function. You give the advice. And so, you do those things with the best of our ability and capacity of making sure we lead our organizations to deliver those things. That's my institutional space. Where it was tricky is to actually occupy your space fully, never shirk. I don't know, the minister's office told us to do this. Well, what do we think? Do your job fully, never shirk and never overreach because we're not into partisan politics.
So, sometimes good relationships, et cetera, people can start to rear off to interesting relationships or go over that institutional space. I truly believed in that space.
[00:16:09 Overlaid text on screen: What does the phrase "walk softly in your power shoes" mean to you?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Oh, that's my whole management philosophy. On my desk I have these two little red high-heel shoes. They're tiny – this little. A friend of mine had given them to me and I think of that as my management philosophy.
So, if you're in a position where you're supposed to lead and manage a group of, it can be three people, four people, 400 people, 4,000 people. You have the types of leaders, or managers in this case probably, they jump into the power shoes and stomp around. I'm the boss. And those people never get good advice from their people because everybody is scared of them. Most of their people really wouldn't go the extra mile for them. My experience is unless they're super-duper innovative and they're changing the world, if they're just mediocrely pushing something along, nobody's going to follow them.
Then there are others who have the shoes. They don't get in there. They want to be everybody's friend. They don't want to make the hard decisions. They don't want to do the negative feedback. It's just, that's hard.
So, the best style in my view was to get into the shoes, own the space. But as you get more senior, walk very lightly in those shoes.
[00:17:48 Overlaid text on screen: The concept of public service advice being "non-negotiable" is frequently mentioned. What do you think of that concept?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Public service advice is non-negotiable. That doesn't mean that it is always accepted. But if you're giving advice, you have to, first of all, make sure that it is good advice. It actually has the good analytics. It has actually considered the context within which this advice is going to land in, which is not easy. But once it's done, then you have to give the advice. There's no point in negotiating your advice as to what your advice should be so that the paper trail looks different. That doesn't work in my mind.
I think that that was never a problem for me because I always had great relationships, and good trust-based relationships, with my ministers and therefore the advice was received, not always agreed to, but it was always received and heard.
[00:19:00 Overlaid text on screen: Another concept that is frequently mentioned is "fearless advice". What do you think of that concept?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: A lot of people talk about fearless advice, and I think it is an easy phrase to use. It's a really hard thing to practice. The fearless part I'll get to, but the advice part is that advice has to be the right advice. Advice has to be well considered. It can't be completely tone deaf of, for example, the political realities or financial situation, etc. I can give any advice. I could say, you go and buy this for $10,000. Well, if you have no money, that's the wrong advice. So, it has to fit into the context. So, advice has to be good.
The fearless part, I find it is hard because when you're giving advice, that especially nobody wants to hear, and it actually maybe goes against what is generally expected of you to give, then you have to be at peace with standing alone, which is hard. You have to really not worry about yourself because sometimes you give advice and some people who have control of your career don't like it. And that's okay, but you have to be at peace. The fearless part is hard, but it is doable. But you have to really think about it as to what grounds you. You have to be grounded in the principles. At least that's how I managed.
[00:21:01 Overlaid text on screen: How can a deputy minister build a productive relationship with a new minister?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I was a relatively new Deputy Minister, maybe eight, nine months and there was a ministerial shuffle. So, I go to meet the new minister at Rideau Hall and odd, awkward handshakes, he doesn't know, and my name is really difficult, and I had checked him out and I wasn't very sure of him either. So, a kind of not great first warm introduction. So, I went home, and I prepared my notes as to what I was going to tell the Minister at our one-on-one bilateral get to know each other meeting. So, I'm on a send mode.
So, then I started to think, probably this is absolutely the wrong approach to any relationship because you can't just go and tell people what they were supposed to do and how they're going to be briefed, etc. So, instead I went and respected his position, bought two coffees, sat in front of him and I said, look Minister, you don't know me and I don't know you, but I want you to know this: I'm always going to tell you the truth; I'm always going to give you the best advice that I think we're capable of; and I'm always going to have your back. Now tell me, what are your priorities for this department?
We talked; it was great. Towards the end, the Minister turns to me and says, but you'll tell me when I'm wrong, right? And I said absolutely. And that was the beginning of a relationship based on trust and based on respect. It is not a friendship, it is not a family relationship, it's a different professional relationship where you have to trust each other, you're a partner, but at the same time there's a natural tension there and you have to be able to figure that out.
[00:23:13 Overlaid text on screen: How did you navigate the challenges of moving to a new portfolio during the 2009 economic crisis?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: 2008/9 economic crisis, it was a shock to the whole world, and it was a shock to the economy. It was the most unknown situation that you could have for me at that time.
[00:23:43 Overlaid text on screen: News release of June 17, 2009, of Prime Minister Harper announcing changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service.]
[00:23:43 Overlaid text on screen: In 2009, she was appointed Deputy Minister of the Department of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: I got shuffled to Transport, Infrastructure and Communities right in the middle of the crisis.
[00:23:54 Overlaid photo of Yaprak Baltacioğlu. Overlaid text on screen: This position led her to her final role in public service as Secretary of the Treasury Board from 2012 until her retirement in 2018.]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: And it was one of those no fail missions and I really hadn't worked in that portfolio ever. And it was probably one of the best jobs I ever had because there was a real crisis and there were things we could do. We had the Stimulus package, and it had to be delivered, and it had to be delivered well. And it had to be delivered without, hopefully, not getting a lot of wrong things in wrong people's hands. And we had to deliver well because it actually created jobs. So, while the world was burning, I remember us just hunkering down and doing what we can do to actually contribute to getting onto the other side of the economic crisis. So, it was amazing.
That's why I love public service so much, because you end up being in a situation where you can actually do something that actually can help people go through a really, really hard time. So, that was one of the most amazing times. Of course, I was tired senseless, etc., but I had the most amazing team, and it was just great.
[00:25:18 Overlaid text on screen: Can you share your insights on the process of onboarding a new government, particularly with the arrival of a new Prime Minister?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Transitions are very tricky times for public service. But at the same time, it's an opportunity for renewal because transition planning, you generate new ideas, you renew public service thinking in many ways because you have no constraints of, you know, one party or the other party or other party. It's, you basically have broad – you can think about, where's the world going? What policies do we want to recommend to a new ministry? I think that's an opportunity. So, I find that part interesting.
But once the new administration comes in, first of all, you have to treat the people who are leaving with respect. And I don't want to say compassion, but you have to show them the right amount of care because they are public servants, too. Political people are public servants in a different institutional role, so you have to recognize that they have actually done this for their country. And the incoming people, you have to be able to hear them because they got elected on a platform, they got elected by Canadians. So, you have to respect that space and you have to really understand where they're coming from.
Sometimes if you've been going this way for so long and the government changes, it's just so easy to say, well, yes, but your idea doesn't make that much sense because of the following 200 reasons. That's kind of a knee-jerk reaction that happens because we've been going this way so long, now we have to go that way. So, that's why I always think that it's important to pause and hear who this new government is. What do they stand for? What are their fundamental values? What are they trying to do for the country? Once you can get that, the rest is easier.
[00:27:40 Overlaid text on screen: What advice would you give to deputy ministers who are facing challenging times in their roles?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: First of all, as a deputy minister, you always are one letter away from resignation. So, that's not a big deal. And you should be at peace with that because staying at all costs is not particularly worthwhile for who you are as a person, at least for me. That's why – I dealt with the far part. I didn't say that I didn't have fear of losing my job, etc. But I think I was at peace with that.
Second thing is that you're never truly alone. Build a community, get to know people, have friends who can help you, support you, even if you can't talk to them about everything. You should have people who can give you advice or just listen to you. I always had: Morris Rosenberg I'll talk to when I had policy problems; Margaret Biggs, because she was my girlfriend. I always had people in my life who can help me just sustain myself.
The other one advice I'll give is the system is there to help you, but you have to know how to mobilize the system. So, use the system to help you, get them to help you, but be really planned, know the environment you're in. Because I think a lot of problems can be better solved if you actually engage the right people and the right tools in the right situation, right descriptions. But then come to the solution.
[00:29:29 Overlaid text on screen: Can you share what Canada means to you?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: First of all, my name is Yaprak, and the Canadian flag is a maple leaf.
[00:29:40 Overlaid text on screen: In Turkish, "Yaprak" means "leaf".]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: So, I kind of think that this was a love match made in heaven for me. And I am grateful. I am grateful that this country actually would give a life to an immigrant Muslim woman who knew nobody and had not much and give this person an opportunity to have a career like I had. And then, also have a life like I had. I am so grateful for everything I have in my life. And none of it would have been possible without Canada giving me that opportunity.
[00:30:28 Overlaid text on screen: What advice would you give to a junior public servant just starting out their career?]
Yaprak Baltacioğlu: Never be cynical because I think Canadians deserve better from their public service. Never be cynical. Never take your work for granted and just do it halfway. Always go the extra mile and do more because you work for Canadians. And it's an honour to be a public servant. Not every day will be great. And now I have all these stars in my eyes about my public service career. I'm sure I had horrible days. Many, many. Probably I had horrible years, probably.
But you're there to do a job. And it's not just the job, it's a job that could make a difference. Never forget that.
[00:31:25 Video closes with the crew packing up their equipment from the interview.]
[00:31:31 The CSPS animated logo appears onscreen. Text on screen: canada.ca/school.]
[00:31:37 The Government of Canada wordmark appears, and fades to black.]
